Sister's memories **trigger EA PA VA***

[mary jane]

** Triggers EA/ PA/ VA **

thank you silent. it's funny how her last (second) mail made this very clear.
she writes very very confusing stuff!! on the one hand she writes how horrible it was and that we weren't allowed to do anything, not going to the corner shop to get sweets, not crossing the streets, not meeting her friends (in the small town). but my oldest sister apparently thought we were being spoilt... err yeah compared to how strict she grew up ... anyway, on the other hand she's writing like it's fine and doesn't concern her now at all. something like 'she didn't beat me a lot really, anyway I twisted her arm and then she stopped. she had respect after that!' how on earth wasn't she too scared to do that??? I would have never never done that. I was always so scared.
she said my father wasn't concerned with raising the kids and he was the hero for us. however, he forbade everything. my mother said ask your father and he said no.
ok, no point going on about this stuff. it's nothing compared to what everyone else went through. I get these information clearly through my sister's denial and smooth talk anyway.
this is so confusing. it gives me massive headaches. I try to make sense of it and still can't. wondering what my parents were on about when they didn't allow us to cross the street if they weren't concerned for our well-being. they would have picked up my sister from her abuse boyfriends house at 2 am if they did care, wouldn't they? rather than knowing she'd go on her own through the dark. ....

I have been in tears when I got an email from my mother yesterday.
my father is sick. he's got a tumor and will need surgery next month. I shall not worry!! ahhh nooooo this hurts so much. I decided on staying strong and stay out of reach. I wanted to ignore her mails. but now. I don't know. I don't know. what if....??? I will never forgive myself if I won't have talked to him before. but I stick to what I've said I can't go back to denial and pretending. so ... ohhhh I feel bad.
and of course my mother didn't get how cold my last mail was. she ignored it.

**Trigger profanity, SA***
if only I remembered myself. oh and if only I know what else there was. I could make a better decision. they took away my memories, my childhood.
I'm in denial mostly about ... uhmm.... I've been wondering... if I have experienced anything like SA... I tell myself no. but then there were some dreams, next to the usual horror every night where I've dreamed of SA and of course for a whole day it makes me think I have indeed been abused. ohh shit, I can't get my head around it. maybe it's just too damaged to think clearly. I need to stop numbing. I think I might find out then but I can't. It gets unbearable... what to do....???

[lonelylife]

Hi mary jane,
You raise some very valid questions and ones which are very common problems that crop up in dysfunctional families. The thing is, looking to the ones who are in any way at the heart of the denial to receive any sort of real acknowledgements or validations, or even any type of rational response, is only going to gain more confusion for you. It's like going into the pit of hungry alligators, them responding by chewing you up because that's what alligators do, and then you climbing out mangled and torn, and asking the gators why. Come back in and we'll show you why, is all the gators will say, because all they can give you is more of the same. If they could have thought rationally about it, they wouldn't have been immersed in it and succumbing to it in the first place. You mentioned

it's nothing compared to what everyone else went through.

It's everything compared to what everyone else went through, and really there is no comparison, because it's all horrible and wrong and damaging. It's your experience, it's reality, it's truth, and it's enough damaging that they all have substituted some (huge) level of denial in your family, which incidentally is usually very much an encouraged practice by the abuser/denier parents. Rationalizing, minimizing, and explaining everything away is what people who actively and willingly share in the dysfunction (and gators ) all do. Your father being made out to be the hero is just such an example.

You mentioned

and of course my mother didn't get how cold my last mail was. she ignored it.

also very typical. And what she's been doing all her life. Ignoring whatever doesn't fit with her fantasy world view.

if only I remembered myself. oh and if only I know what else there was. I could make a better decision. they took away my memories, my childhood.

I can only offer from someone whose abuse did not include sa, that I have never dreamed about being sa'ed, and I have loads of nightmares. The fact that you have dreamed it and also that you are thinking there could be something behind it might be something that is wanting you to take more of a look. Either way, if you are getting uncomfortable feelings, your feelings are there for a reason and what the abusers have always told us is to ignore our feelings and dismiss them as meaningless, but your feelings matter and if you feel uncomfortable you get to do and act in ways that you choose. You don't have to do things just because people who will never tell you the truth tell you to act in those ways. You get to do what you feel is best for you. And you don't have to know for sure, if you have a feeling often (perhaps usually) feelings, hunches like that come from a valid place. No one really "goes there" into realms of abuse without a reason--so it's not you, you are not crazy. Usually quite the opposite, you are very sane. I am not saying that you have experienced sa because no one can say that for you (except the abuser/enabler/deniers, and they never will), but all I can say is where people have suspicions there has usually been a reason for those suspicions, and that even the suspicion is enough in that it makes you feel wary, for you to honor your wariness and your feelings around that by keeping yourself safe.

[Silent]

I actually identify with a lot of what you say here. I have very few memories of my life - big blanks. The sa stuff I have had was outside my direct family, only a few incidents when I was about eleven and then older when was seventeen. So I see that stuff as seperate in a way. But I understand how horrible it is to not remember (and how that can leave us wondering especially when we discover things that we do not remember) and also how horrible it is when others "take" on what happened does not match yours.
I still get hurt by the latter but now exclude my siblings from any of what is happening for me as its safer for me.

I am not sure if you have heard of something called covert inc*st. It is actually possible for someone to experience many aspects of sa without there having been acts involved. I have aspects of this with my mother but only aspects.

I also constantly minimise what happened to me by comparing it to others and will say to you what I wish I could believe for myself. That your hurt and pain stands alone and it is what it is. It is not an overreaction and you are a strong person and you reacted as you did for good reason. Trauma is a scar on the emotions and the mind and these things dont happen for nothing. Trust and believe in yourself regardless of what you have been trained to do.

I think minimising can have many roles. It can be a form of coping (it wasnt so bad and therefore I am not hurt), a form of self doubt (result of invalidation as a child) and a symptom of having been trained to take cues from the outside instead of trusting our inner experience.

Re your email to your mother - I have realised that all of this type of communication needs to be done entirely for me and that it is unhelpfuol to expect anything back - any recognition, understanding, remorse. Hoping for those things just leaves us open to more hurt. Like lonelylife said, a leopard (or crocodile) does not change its spots and if we keep waiting for that to happen we just get hurt more.

Your eldest sisters reactions sound very unhealthy to me. She sounds like she has taken on some of your parents thought processes in order to protect herself from seeing that they were wrong and therefore realising that she was ab*sed. Its a dangerous mindset.

I wish you wisdom with what you decide to do. Just remember there is no wrong decision and sometimes you need to just look after yourself as thats the best you can do.

[lonelylife]

Hi again mary jane,
I realized I forgot to respond to all of what I meant to from your post. You mentioned

wondering what my parents were on about when they didn't allow us to cross the street if they weren't concerned for our well-being. they would have picked up my sister from her abuse boyfriends house at 2 am if they did care, wouldn't they? rather than knowing she'd go on her own through the dark. ....

Often confusing messages are sent by abusers. For one thing, they try to appear normal in public and also part of making themselves and their kids think they are good parents involves doing some good things. But good things cannot outweigh or overshadow the bad. That is, that's what they're supposed to do, the good things. And only those things. The problem is that they do the bad things interchangeably with the good and try to jumble it all up into pretending that they are good parents. Or that the good things give them some kind of ridiculous free pass to do horrible stuff. But they don't get ribbons pinned on them for doing that which parents should do, because if they weren't planning on doing only that, they should not have had kids. They brought kids here, and have a responsibility to us to provide only safety and only proper treatment and never any abuse of any kind. Some of their "protectiveness" can also be rooted in control mechanisms. Keeping the kids close and not allowing them to venture out can often make them stay hopelessly bound to the abusive parents, and overly grateful for any little glimmers of "niceness" in a sea of otherwise abusiveness.

[malanie]

maryjane.......


i am so sleepy i have to sleep but i wanted you to know that i hear all you wrote. i read. i understand so. i could realate..and i have a lot of compssion here with your thread. i too have 2 sisters and we all remember and respond differently. always did. always will. i want to write much much more and i will. i promise. i will sleep now because i think i have to... or i might braek the computer dropping it.

i dont want that to happen.

i am listening. i wanted you to know....

[dreamykitten]

Hi again mary jane,
Often confusing messages are sent by abusers. For one thing, they try to appear normal in public and also part of making themselves and their kids think they are good parents involves doing some good things. But good things cannot outweigh or overshadow the bad. That is, that's what they're supposed to do, the good things. And only those things. The problem is that they do the bad things interchangeably with the good and try to jumble it all up into pretending that they are good parents. Or that the good things give them some kind of ridiculous free pass to do horrible stuff.

This is what makes dealing with abuse so hard. It isn't like in the movies or on TV, where an abuser is this hideous monster who only does terrible things. My abuser (my father) was a wonderful man in a lot of ways; he did some extremely nice things for me, my family and other people. But that does not make the abuse any less bad or make it excusable. It also makes it easier to deny or not remember the abuse; when my sister talks about my father, she talks about what a great man he was. She isn't lying; all the things she says about him were true, but she completely forgets the bad things he did.

When I was growing up, whenever my father did something nice, I always felt he was doing it as a way of getting over his guilt for the way he physically abused me and I always felt that his good activities were sort of tainted.

[mary jane]

thank you all for your thoughts. I find it so very hard to reply here. it's like I feel exhausted even just thinking about replying.

lonelylife
- the alligators parable makes much sense and thank you for acknowledging my pain and struggle.

it's truth, and it's enough damaging that they all have substituted some (huge) level of denial in your family, which incidentally is usually very much an encouraged practice by the abuser/denier parents.

I sometimes wonder if my parents did anything intentionally to keep us small. I suppose most abusers do what they do because that's all they know and what they are.... it seems a bad idea to try and understand anything at all! it just gives me more confusion and headaches but I can't stop it. I cannot rest. I wonder whether my father intentionally said no to everything so we wouldn't gain any confidence and know there're things out there outside of what we knew. he was so strict. he told us not to bother other people with out presence (meeting friends). he made us feel like we disturbed other people. that's how awful we were. I still feel like I disturb people all the time. it's hard to imagine that anyone would want me around.

Some of their "protectiveness" can also be rooted in control mechanisms. Keeping the kids close and not allowing them to venture out can often make them stay hopelessly bound to the abusive parents, and overly grateful for any little glimmers of "niceness" in a sea of otherwise abusiveness.

I think this is it.

Rationalizing, minimizing, and explaining everything away is what people who actively and willingly share in the dysfunction (and gators ) all do. Your father being made out to be the hero is just such an example.

I suppose you're right. it's hard to accept.

I can only offer from someone whose abuse did not include sa, that I have never dreamed about being sa'ed, and I have loads of nightmares.

**SA trigger**
urrghh.... thank you. another dream, I'm naked, blood running down my legs, a wound, I don't understand.
**end trigger**

I know I've not only always ignored my feelings (and yes, this is what I always was supposed to do), I have also made them disappear completely, until I was numb. in fact I get the feeling of 'something else happened' as soon as I come out of this numb existence. I went to a busy place with a friend yesterday only to protect me from myself (being home alone). it was overwhelming, too many people, too much stress. I hid in the ladies' and cried a bit.
lonelylife, your advice and words are invaluable. I keep thinking 'it can't have happened' ... I need to address this though. what if it happened when I was a baby? I won't really remember then...

Silent
- thank you so much for hearing me and acknowledging my feelings, doubts and supsision, too. I have never heard of covert inc*st before... just read a brief description now. makes much sense.

Trust and believe in yourself regardless of what you have been trained to do.

I know I should but it's the most difficult thing to do. trust myself! seems an impossible task. I only believe in certain things once somebody else validates them, such as you do here.
I agree with what you say about my eldest sister. she is very much in denial and minimizes all the time. I am grateful she really accepts what I think and do though. she doesn't want to deal with it.

I wrote a short message to my mother because I want to keep my sister out of it and she's the one my mother will ask but then my sister put herself into this position and I think I won't do that again. there will never be an end.
my father... I think I can't call him. I just can't do it. but I will write him a letter saying I wish him the best for the surgery. it's a coward's decision. I cannot face talking to him but I cannot ignore him either.

dreamykitten
- sorry, of course I have read your story. (so many names so many stories... )
I relate to what you say so much. this is really the way I experienced my father. he was great. only not always...
my mother's good acts where always tainted for me because I never really forgot her abuse.

melanie
-thanks for caring and reading. do not worry about saying much. I know what you go through. thanks for being here!!


I'm feeling horrible now. I know writing is good, I need to face it. but it's so hard. want to numb myself. what a big fight it is everyday to stay strong. so tiring.
thank you all so so so much for caring.

[lonelylife]

Hi mary jane,
You mentioned

it's a coward's decision

Not cowardly, very brave. The cowards are the abusers, picking on and mistreating little defenseless kids. Doing what you need to for yourself, for your peace, is actually the brave thing. Also, why should we have to somehow bend ourselves into pretzels accomodating those who never really accomodated us? I used to seriously believe that if I modeled the behavior of how people should act to my mother, she would model it back. But she never did. It was just me twisting myself into knots, and her jackass self enjoying every minute of it while selfishly thinking it to be her right for it to be a one-way street. Well she can stay on that one-way street by herself now.

[malanie]

maryjane....i will answer this post today...i am out the door now to therapy. i havent forgotten you tho..

[malanie]

im sorry maryjane. bad therapy. bad day. posted on my thread. cant talk. i do want to respond. havent forgotten